Topic Closed: June 27, 2008 - September 14, 2008
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Separating Food Prices From The Energy Economy
posted by EmmettLBrown on 9/8/2008 - This comment was recommended 1 time
With the technology we have today, it has been said that corn ethanol is one of the more significant culprits contributing to the rise in food prices, but ethanol has the greatest potential in terms of renewable sources of energy. Corn grows heartily in the Midwest, but requires huge energy consumption to produce. Sugarcane contains more sugar than corn, but does not grow in our climate. This is the American dilemma. What if the economies of food prices related to corn can be separated from the economies of its energy distribution? It is true that corn requires massive amounts of energy to plow, irrigate, plant, harvest, and compost. It is true that the pulp (distillers grain) left over from ethanol production is used in cattle feed - increasing the price of milk and beef, but also fertilizer for farmers - and so the cycle goes. It is also true that corn stalk and husk (stover) also contains sugar in the cell tissue that can be used to ferment into ethanol (cellulosic). However, it is also true that typical cellulosic ethanol produces merely 3/4ths that of corn ethanol, and the benefits are quickly discounted. Cellulosic ethanol must first strip away the exterior tissue of cell material without destroying the sugar (cellulosic preprocess). This is the technological dilemma. Don't you wish there a technology that got more out of cellulosic biomass so that we could separate the economies of “corn as food” from “corn as fuel”, maintain “consumer convenience” at the pump while we transition away from petroleum, and lower fuel prices while we purify the environment - all at the same time? One fuel company has a promising solution: organisms. For Fuel Freedom, Inc. uses tiny bugs in their preprocess that also creates additional biomass. A significant portion of separating food prices from the energy supply is doable. Yes, we finally can have our cake and eat it, too. The link below has useful information for those who wish to know more about their technology.
forfuelfreedom.com/about_for_fuel_freedom.htm
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Input
posted by MarkLeavenworth on 9/10/2008 - Be the first to recommend this
Emmett- Here is some input, since no one else seems to be responding to your efforts. Various of your premises might be false. Essentially, though, you are asking to turn fuel for fire into a government regulated contraband, like alcohol or tobacco. They also compete for ag-land. Some input for you, I found out why tons and tons of free wood is not marketable for pulp. It is because the pulp market is saturated. Stocks and stocks of cellulose with no end in sight.
photosynthesis is not as efficient as SPT's
posted by fireofenergy on 9/12/2008 - Be the first to recommend this
Corn should only be used as an experiment (for newbies) to figure out how to "biofuel" weeds in the desert, aka switchgrass. Yet even this will not provide enough for our desendants. They will be more efficient... But way more numerous! Thus, we will need the next (already available) source. All energy (including your lights and rock'n'roll parties) will dissapate into heat. Humanity's heat per year, if converted to an instant, would represent 4,000,000 atomic bombs! (Yet, that may be trivial, compaired to the amount of sunlight we recieve in that amount of time). That heat "byproduct" just might be a concern when there are more of us using more, especially, if it's green energy (on a Solar Power Tower scale). You see, there ain't much of an encentive to "conserve" when the power's green anyways! Only 30% more or so of the deserts would have to be "mirrored" to make up for such innefficiencies. (And you guys, Cheveron, could make yet another fortune from graphite beds, mirrors, ect). Solar Power Tower is virtually unlimited since, not only is there enough room (after eco issues are solved) for continued expansion, SPT's can store their own heat for "on demand" juice! Hence molten salt (and graphite beds such as the aluminum industry has been using all along). If you can create a demand for such excess electricity, then we can realize the dream of (almost) unlimited clean energy! Oh, and about, that energy turns into heat thing, the mirrors used to reflect the sun onto the millions of central heat absorbers would also reflect the bright part of the sky next to the sun back into space. This means that SPT's (and other solar thermal OR PV that uses mirrors) have the distinct advantage of not creating as much heat as any other source! That concept is far more prosperous than any food (or weeds) to gas initiative! A section 100 miles square would provide 3 X USA's electrical demand if mirrored, assuming 25% efficiency, 25% capacity (for clouds and nightime), and .08 Kw per sq ft solar intesity. (You guys need to make money off of the "new battery" and sorts for the billions of e-cars). Why isn't biofuels that efficient? Because photosynthesis is from GOD and doesn't have to beeeee, That's why He created brains... (and a large desert). Vote yes on 7 !
www.bestsolarvision.com
feeding the world
posted by charley1945 on 9/1/2008 - This comment was recommended 1 time
There is, I believe, a better and more efficient method of feeding the world. The technological know how and the financial resources are currently available to do the following: Farm land for planting crops, barns and coups for raising livestock and fowl, reservoirs for fish farming, green houses that allow plants to grow year round and skycrapers. By combining these entities and converting from horizontal to vertical farming, the sky would literaly be the limit. Famine, created by any number of natural disasters, could be totally iliminated. If the Emire State Building, for example, were to be converted and used exclusively for growing crops and for raising livestock, fowl and fish, how many people could the building feed? The structure would need a water supply and electricity; local, solar ,wind etc. The walls of the building, would be replaced by screens and hinged mirrored glass or Plexiglas panels that could be opened and closed automatically This would provide the needed sunlight for the crops and protection from insects and inclement weather. These structures could also be used for growing corn, sugar etc to produce bio fuels.
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Sounds expensive
posted by TMiller on 9/8/2008 - Be the first to recommend this
Seems this would cost a lot of money to build skyscrappers for farming. Alternatively, were would people work if you moved into existing buildings?
Control
posted by MarkLeavenworth on 8/28/2008 - Be the first to recommend this
There is no good reason for one nation to control the money of another. International trade can take place on any asset. There is no good reason for any nation to control the textbooks of another. Values and knowledge define cultures. If stable nations adjust to their own time-frames, cultures and situations without unsolicited interference, it will be conducive to stable prices and supplies.
posted by Miroslav from Serbia on 9/8/2008 - Be the first to recommend this
Agree! Any solution, proposition, ...?
Solutions
posted by MarkLeavenworth on 9/8/2008 - Be the first to recommend this
Miroslav- The principles of all arts can be learned in a well-planned two-month course for very little cost. Without planned training, it takes five or six years to learn the principles. Gramatical knowledge can be gained in a week with a small pamphlet. Otherwise, an individual will spend years searching for it. History is hard fought, but is re-written by any interest that controls the press. Those who believe service to the group is the highest good, usually commit themselves to fighting individual initiative as the greatest evil. Those who lack individual initiatives usually commit themselves to fighting the civil order of the group. I have five primary intiatives on my list, two of which are daily progressing. I have another dozen for the coming years. They fall under the headings of engineering, education, and number. When YOU acquire ownership or use of any materials and tools and make a success of them (which may take many trials) then you will find your best investment opportunities are closer than expected.
Successful Projects
posted by MarkLeavenworth on 9/3/2008 - Be the first to recommend this
It looks like a lot of people put their hope of success on some investor, corporation or government giving them money. Unless you can see and count the materials and tools to be used, your ideas for projects have little chance of success. Better still, if the tools are in your own hands and the materials are your own, you cannot help but learn and succeed from your work, even if only drawing a leaf with a pencil and paper. (That at least will get the ideas of your mind connected with the reality of nature's complexity and form, giving you a solid foundation for other, larger projects.)
Projects...
Yes, but, if you have a formula that works, you need support and investment! Good energy solution is NOTHING if it isn't financed by government or major corporation - we are talking about not one, two or three millions, but hundreds of millions, maybe billions...?
Development
Miroslav- There is a ratio between the material it takes for succesful development and the rate at which a project can develop and grow successfully. It's the same for the fuel and air of a fire as it is for the financial and material requirements of a project. With shares in the common wealth distributed so widely, and in many cases themsleves backed with other financial instruments, there is a distortion of the natural ratio between those who have money and those who have the knowledge to make sound investments. It is a natural phenomenon that people who believe a valuable new project only needs money to succeed almost invariably have great difficulty starting a bon-fire. You CAN make a living in this environment strictly managing financial assets either for gain or through slow bankruptcy. But we are not on Earth strictly to pay our bills, we are on Earth because God has given us the opportunity to live and experience the wealth and wonders of life and learning...something that simply cannot be done on paper.
use less, need less.
posted by Ken white on 9/8/2008 - Be the first to recommend this
There are many technologies being explored for replacing fossil fuel use, but replacing one fuel with another means you are still using just as much energy. Reducing fuel use is a much better focus, directly eliminating the cost of purchasing any fuel saved. European cars get over 40 mpg, California homes use less energy than they did 30 years ago, despite being bigger and having more appliances. Research on alternatives is great, but we don't need to reinvent the wheel before we start applying solutions that are already available.
The Enviromental and Energy Shortage Cure is here!
posted by marvinbishop20042004 on 6/27/2008 - Be the first to recommend this
Checkout this USA Blog on Billionaire and British knight Sir Richard Branson: http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2006/09/branson_pledges.html If I claim that my invention, the Infinity Electrical Reactor (IER) can cure Global Warming and supply unlimited electric energy for home/auto for only a fraction of the three billion dollars that Mr. Branson gave President Clinton; Don't you think its at least worth INVESTIGATING? Spread the word! Billionaire and British knight Sir Richard Branson; FOOL OR FUNCTIONALIST?
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the Environmental and Energy Shortage cure is WHERE exactly?
posted by OriginalPenDragon on 9/1/2008 - Be the first to recommend this
Marvin, you claim to have solved the energy problems we face, yet there's nothing published out there, except for your own words here. As for Richard Branson, I'd say he's putting his money where everybody else's mouth seems to be; diverting his profits from transportation incomes to help combat global warming. At the very least he is also trying to reduce Virgin's carbon footprint by putting something back. Unless you can show viable, verifiable proof of your own claims, it might be best not to appear too critical of others efforts to offset their own environmental impact.
alternatives to oil
posted by grayglow on 9/5/2008 - Be the first to recommend this
All alternatives should be given a voice in this chaotic energy world. If yours has some merit then yes you should have a chance to prove it works, I hope it does it sounds interesting even though it's most likely a complete hoax
A little action is needed here...
posted by Miroslav from Serbia on 9/5/2008 - Be the first to recommend this
Ok, i only saw the goals are set, and i'm sure we are all familiar with those, so, same old story... especially interesting and poor ''solution'' is that every farmer should own a cell phone to stay in touch with the market (like he can make an impact on it - c'mon folks, we all know where the real players are- wall street)! So, all I see is talk talk talk... BUT, I have to admit, the goals are good, however not compatible with the economy today! If they wanted to fight against poverty, they would have done that long time ago - take a look at the Africa, they are still dying of malaria, than the G8 summit - bunch of fake promises, etc. Just read the UN development program - yes, the situation is very different on the field, but, those rich guys are ''trying'' to solve the issues while flying their private jets... I do feel they are trying to buy some more time, and it looks like a good marketing, you know, like 'we from the Virgin do care'... I can only see the plans and 'to do' lists - nothing else! Hoping for more good solutions, best regards and good health for all, Miroslav P.S. We all mentioned wind and solar power in previous discussions - we should use that track, and in this discussion I saw the '4 day working week' - good energy saver!!!
"The Infinity Electrical Reactor"
posted by solar_satellite on 9/5/2008 - Be the first to recommend this
"If I claim that my invention, the Infinity Electrical Reactor (IER) can cure Global Warming and supply unlimited electric energy for home/auto for only a fraction of the three billion dollars that Mr. Branson gave President Clinton; Don't you think its at least worth INVESTIGATING? " No.
IER
posted by Miroslav from Serbia on 9/7/2008 - Be the first to recommend this
It is worth of investigating, hope you'll have more luck applying your invention!!! This, I think, is the most difficult part or the projects - getting them into real life... already gave examples in previous discussions about people who invented some other type of energy but being refused from the state officials - sad, very sad, and yet, we are assured that we have the power and rights to change the world...?! Praying it won't be too late for all the good energy solutions you folks represented here, sincerely, Miroslav
Biotechnology for a Safe and Sustainable World
posted by jdula2244 on 9/3/2008 - Be the first to recommend this
Using one resource to make another is not practical and I do not believe it will work out well. We need to find closed loop agricultural systems that emulate nature, particular to individual regions. These systems would require minimum input and still be able to provide for our needs. John Todd, a founder of the New Alchemy institute in Massachusetts, published a pamphlet titled “A Modest Proposal,” which I believe holds the key to our future. In it he wrote of the “imperative to create biologically based technologies based upon an ecological ethic. It would function,” he explained, “at the lowest levels of society, providing inexpensive life-support basis for individual families, small farmers, or communities who desire more independence and a way of life that restores rather than destroys this fragile planet. It would be founded on the philosophical view that all things are interconnected and interdependent, and that the whole cannot be defined in monetary terms. Energy production, agriculture, landscapes, and communities must be tied together within individual research programs and each area should be considered as a unique entity worthy of study. From indigenous research projects would evolve a biotechnology that reflects the needs of each region and peoples. In this way it will be possible to have fantastically varied communities and landscapes, as each develops its own integration with the world around it.” The New Alchemy institute believed, “that ecological and social transformations must take place at the lowest functional levels of society if humankind is to direct its course towards a greener, saner world." With all the evidence of ecological degradation, the New Alchemy Institute was creating hope in the tangible form of bioshelters, “arks,” windmills, gardens, and aquatic ecosystems-“elegant solutions predicated on the uniqueness of place,” as John Todd put it. This solution would also be considerably less expensive than building multistory high-rise buildings for agricultural use. If your interested in how these bioshelters work I suggest reading “A Safe and Sustainable World,” by Nancy Jack Todd, co-founder of the New Alchemy Institute. As our great President Dwight D. Eisenhower once said, “There is nothing wrong with America that the faith, love of freedom, intelligence, and energy of her citizens cannot cure.”
www.vsb.cape.com/~nature/greencenter/newalchemy.html//
Living Machines
posted by MarkLeavenworth on 9/4/2008 - Be the first to recommend this
jdula2244- It takes several years for a gardener to learn that the soil greatly improves with several layers of life working together. In a way, it is almost production from nothing. Still, YOU must start with a piece of ground, tools, fertilizing materials, seeds, and your own labor. Hopefully the Todds and others will continue to discover and share new ways to make the most of the interactions of life, but they can't make the most of the most valuable living machine...YOU! That to me is not the lowest functional level of society, but the primary and most valuable.
Let’s Start the New Wave of Economical Prosperity Now
posted by New Wave Now on 8/30/2008 - Be the first to recommend this
Water can be pumped against gravity by using the weight of water itself. Why this is important? Because every cubic meter pumped up one meter with the system I have envisioned represents ten thousand joules of energy (or watts once the rate is maintained) The pump does not produce significant heat so rubber, plastic and fiber glass can be used in its manufacture. Very inexpensive manufacturing cost. The market for this product includes three hundred million Americans. After prioritizing domestic needs the market for this product is expandable beyond frontiers. Any American plant that is facing the possibility of closure due to Wall-Mart style practices will be prioritized to become a partner in this project. Honesty, decency, hard working old fashioned style American Company is required. Not involved in FISA or secretive commissions is a plus.
Algae: The New Biofuel
posted by NAA on 8/30/2008 - Be the first to recommend this
Algae is totally renewable, does not affect the food channel and eats co2. If you are interested in learning about algae biofuel, you may want to check out: www.nationalalgaeassociation.com
nationalalgaeassociation.com
energy and food
posted by shan74 on 8/26/2008 - Be the first to recommend this
My idea is a simple, and I'm sure I am not the only one to think of this. Why don't we try looking into planting corn in the medians and on the sides of the highways. I live in the midwest and there is plenty of land to do this. I know that it would cost to plant and harvest this but I think we could use the prison workers to get low cost labor. We already have them in our area cleaning, mowing and weed-eating these areas. Plus, if there were crops planted there the highway dept wouldn't have to mow all summer. I believe there would be an abundance of viable corn to use for fuel. We could even let the highway dept have the gas for their trucks and reduce the cost there. I know this all sounds great on paper and there would be many obstacles and "red tape" to overcome but I would like to hear what others think.
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Corn is not the answer for our future energy solutions!!!!????
posted by bill f. on 8/26/2008 - Be the first to recommend this
We already produce enough corn to feed our people all the corn and corn products they desire for their daily diet. if you are worried about World Starvation, promote international programs that teach farming and provide start up equipment like in Afaganistan! Corn oil is fairly well suited for bio-diesel but ethanol is a bad joke for these times. There is plenty of land in our land banks that should be rotated in and out of production. Prison labor for monetary gain is almost like a war crime, we all would benefit at their expense! In Indiana, there is a group developing alternate fuel for about a buck a gallon or so my Hoosier friend tells me. Perhaps they will join our ranks again for an update? The best use for medians would be to plant trees that clean the air and add a safety barrier to oncomming trafic. I personally applaud' shan74 for thinking outside the box; I just don't favor that particular solution but any mind capable of this kind of idea is also capable of producing the winner. Thanks, shan74 Texas Bill f.
Obstacles
posted by MarkLeavenworth on 8/27/2008 - Be the first to recommend this
Your idea is not simple, and you probably are the only one to ever think of it! You have a spirit of innovation that will grow with all the experience and knowledge you can get. It might help you to call some of the people at the highway department, the sheriff department, and contact farmers and see what input they can give you. Keep a positive attitude, even if others seem discouraging (they don't mean to). The important thing is to gain knowledge and to get advice on ways to gain more knowledge. Eventually, you'll contribute to solutions in one place or another, and to get there you'll have to charge down a path to find out why it may or may not be difficult or why it may or may not be worth doing. Those are the obstacles, and you WILL learn from them if you hunt them down and seek them out. Good Luck!
Food and energy
posted by shan74 on 8/28/2008 - Be the first to recommend this
I wanted to thank you so much for your kind words of encouragement I have never posted my opinions on any website before, and I was a little nervous about it. There are a lot of really interesting and intelligent remarks made on this site and I'm honored that you took the time to respond to mine. Thanks again for making me feel welcome. Shan74
You're Welcome
posted by MarkLeavenworth on 8/29/2008 - Be the first to recommend this
Shan74- It will take more than dreaming up taxes and programs to get this nation out of the mud. It will take leaders willing and able to connect their ideals with the resources available in their immediate and local environment.
High and low tides, waves, currents
posted by charley1945 on 8/30/2008 - Be the first to recommend this
I have not heard a lot mentioned about utilizing the oceans continuous - perpetual - energy of tides, waves and currents. I have always toyed with the idea of a very big "worm screw" concept that would rotate a generator with the waves coming in and the water receeding. Under the water there would be no "eye soars" or polution, but only a lot of power being generated